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flatlanderep Member 
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Installed Pertronix Ignitor I today and expected car to start but it keeps cranking. I installed new NGK BPR6ES plugs and gapped the plugs at 0.035. I am getting spark at all 4 plugs, verified by removing plug, placing on engine and turning the key. Lined up crank pulleys, removed dizzy cap and rotor pointing to #1 plug wire. I called Pertronix tech support and told the support staff person that I have a Bosch “blue” coil and he stated that will work. I told him the wires that are connected to the coil and he said that they were correct. Also there is no ballast resistor and probably removed by PO. Any suggestions to solve why car will not start? Car started prior to the Pertronix. Steve |
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Tim Murphy Member 
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Check you spark timing with a timing light. The spark trigger "mechanism" may be off. When you checked that the rotor was pointed at #1 plug wire at TDC, did you check that the pickup and trigger were also lined up? Also, as I remember, someone recently posted that they had the pertronix wires reversed on the coil (red to + ?) and their symptoms were similar to yours. Take care and good luck. |
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Brett Gibson JH5 20497 Member
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Crank pulley AND Cam pulley's for TDC, you might 180 degrees off. |
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flatlanderep Member
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How do you check if the trigger mechanism inside distributor is lined up? I have checked the wires from Pertronix to the coil and red is to pos and black to neg. |
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flatlanderep Member
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How do I check if I am off 180 degrees? |
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Brett Gibson JH5 20497 Member
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Besides the crankshaft at TDC the cam shafts marks have to be aligned as well. This is what you need to do so your not out of timing, and as an extra, pull the #1 plug and make sure the piston is up on top. Last edited on 11-03-2019 02:22 pm by Brett Gibson JH5 20497 |
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flatlanderep Member
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If I am 180 degrees off, how do I know and what do I do to correct it? Do I switch plug 1 and plug 4 on the dizzy? |
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Tom Bradley Member
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Your spark plug gap may be too big. The spec for is 0.025" for Strombergs, not 0.035". |
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Tom Bradley Member
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The timing may be off when you changed over to the Pertronix, but it should not be off by 180 deg unless you also changed the spark plug wiring at the same time. I would check the timing while cranking and make sure it is somewhere around 5-10 deg BTDC. Anything close to this and the car should at least fire, if not run especially well. An easy check is to use the timing light to look at the cam sprocket marks when cranking. They should be close to being lined up as shown in the JH manual if the spark is a few degrees BTDC. |
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Brett Gibson JH5 20497 Member
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My point about 180 out was the crankshaft timing mark may line up, but if the cams are not, Then the engine is ONE revolution out, thus the 180. Brett |
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flatlanderep Member
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When the intake & exhaust cams align, the crank pulley is about 15- 20 degrees before the TDC timing mark. The distributor rotor is aligned to the #1 plug in the 12 o’clock position: I am attaching photo of crank pulley. Attachment: F9360392-5501-4472-8B2B-326102EF63F0.jpeg (Downloaded 141 times) |
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Tom Bradley Member
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Sorry, scratch the earlier remark (if you read it). I had the direction wrong. The pic shows the crank at almost exactly TDC, which is where it should be with the cam marks aligned. If the Pertronix is firing at this point, then it is firing at TDC. I am not clear how you determined when the spark is firing. Did you check this with a timing light? Which Pertronix do you have, 1, 2 or 3? The timing of 2 and 3 cannot be set statically, so if you do not have a timing light, you will have to get one. Sorry if my responses at this point are not very helpful, but I am struggling to understand exactly what you have been doing. If the only change you made is installing the Pertronix, then the only thing you should have to be looking at is getting the ignition timing correct. Last edited on 11-04-2019 03:17 am by Tom Bradley |
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Tim Murphy Member
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As Tom Bradley suggested in his 2nd post, and I in my first, you really need to check you timing, both crank and cams, with a timing light while someone else attempts to start the engine. Do it quickly to avoid overheating coil, etc. A basic timing light is not expensive and is a very useful tool. Others have had problems installing electronic ignitions, here is one write up. Note, avoid the timing belt adjustments that the author did with his install: https://sites.google.com/site/johnsjensenhealeywebpage/maintenance-projects/2-pertronix-ignition |
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flatlanderep Member
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Determined TDC by aligning intake & exhaust cams to their marks, removed dizzy cap rotor points to #1 plug and crank pulley timing mark lines with TDC. Then I pulled #1 plug and placed a screwdriver in plug hole and piston is at the top. I do have a timing light and not sure how to use it since someone helped with it several years ago. I checked spark for each plug by removing one plug at a time and placing it on. engine block and had a helper turn the key, spark noticed in all 4 plugs. Is it possible the distributor is not seated all the way in the housing? At this point, would someone call me to discuss over the phone while I am at car? 803-230-6328 Thanks; Steve Attachment: 2D53A504-CFCE-46F9-8161-4241C013B3B8.jpeg (Downloaded 132 times) |
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flatlanderep Member
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Here is pic of in/ex cams Attachment: EFD9CABD-0220-4CB8-9C9E-AF98EB9A02CC.jpeg (Downloaded 130 times) |
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flatlanderep Member
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I have the Ignitor 1. In reading many of the posts re: Petronix installs, I notice one of them mentioned not to remove the pinch bolt on the distributor and I do remember removing it before I removed the distributor. Did this change the timing. Also I read John’s post from 2013 and I don’t want to remove the belts to change the timing. With the distributor in the horizontal position, it can only turn very slightly and how do I adjust timing. Attached pic of IN/EX cam gears at TDC. Attachment: B8B9CDC6-4BA7-45F9-BE43-1855CE69882E.jpeg (Downloaded 128 times) |
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Tim Murphy Member
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From your pictures it looks like the crank, cams and distributor are set up correctly. Which is to be expected as it ran good before the pertronix install. Now you need to know when the sparkplug is firing. A timing light will flash when the spark plug fires. I am going to link to a couple of "how tos" sites that may be helpful. Using a basic inductive timing light is not difficult. I find it much easier to see the results if it is dark, or at least not bright, when I actually view the timing light flashes on the crank pully. So, for example, if you are working in the garage, get things set up and then turn off most of the lights. For right now you are just concerned with idle timing. https://www.wikihow.com/Adjust-Timing Last edited on 11-05-2019 01:14 am by Tim Murphy |
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Tim Murphy Member
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And a Youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wifTHbb06_I |
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Esprit2 Member
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flatlanderep wrote:Determined TDC by aligning intake & exhaust cams to their marks, removed dizzy cap rotor points to #1 plug and crank pulley timing mark lines with TDC.Steve, In total, that's correct. But you backed into it, and the good result is more due to luck than proper procedure. Just to make a point, and to get your head focused, TDC is all about CRANK position. The first step should be to rotate the crank until the mark on the V-belt pulley aligns with the 0° (TDC) timing mark. Only then, look at the cam pulleys. If the pulley dots are on the imaginary centerline between cams, but on far opposite sides of the pulleys, then the crank is 180° out, and the #4 cylinder is at TDC. Rotate the crank through another full revolution and back to TDC. That should bring the timing dots half way around the cam pulleys, adjacent to one another, and aligned on the imaginary centerline between the cams. Now the #1 cylinder is at TDC, and you're ready to move on to the ignition timing. The pulleys can only be indexed on the belt in whole tooth increments. One tooth pitch is the distance from a point on one tooth to the exact same point on the next, adjacent tooth. In other words, the total of one tooth width plus one gap width... much more than just the width of one tooth. IF the pulley timing dots are misaligned by just a little bit, far less than a full tooth + gap, then that's just due to tolerances. At TDC, and a 'little bit' off the centerline between the pulleys, they're aligned as close as they're going to get with OEM non-adjustable pulleys, and there's nothing more you can do about it. Relax. Cam timing is defined as "AT TOP DEAD CENTER", so no, it is not permissible to nudge the crank a little off TDC in order to bring the cam pulley timing marks into perfect alignment. With the #1 cylinder AT TDC, the cam pulley dots are where they are... you don't get to move the crank off TDC to "fix" cam timing ! *~*~*~* Now move your attention to the distributor. With the cap on, observe the positions of the plug wire terminals such that you can imagine the locations after the cap is removed. Now remove the cap and notice the rotor's location. With the crank at TDC (all that discussion above), the terminal the rotor is pointing toward is now #1. Reinstall the cap to identify the relevant terminal, and mark it as #1. As you look at the terminal end of the cap (viewed from the flywheel end of the engine looking forward at the distributor cap), the rest of the terminals should be marked in 1-3-4-2 order, COUNTER-clockwise around the cap. Now make certain the wires from the spark plugs are installed on the correct terminals. The #1 spark plug is closest to the front of the engine. *~*~*~* Rotate the crank through just short of two full revolutions, stopping with the timing mark on the V-belt pulley at your desired ignition static advance. If you want the Static Advance to be 10° BTDC, then stop the crank at the 10° BTDC timing mark. Back at the distributor -- The rotor's arm ends with a flat, wide brass blade. The leading edge of the rotor's blade (it rotates counter-clockwise) should now be aligned with the cap's #1 terminal location. At this point, over-lapping a little is better than an air gap. If that's not the case, then loosen the distributor and rotate it as required to bring the #1 terminal in to alignment with (slightly overlapping) the rotor's leading edge. Re-tighten the distributor clamp. NOTE: The distributor is spring-loaded outward. If you simply loosen the clamp, the distributor will pop out of the oil pump. First, grasp the distributor with your left hand and apply inward pressure. Hold that inward pressure while you loosen, rotate, and tighten the distributor. Don't release that inward pressure until the clamp is tight again. The engine part of the equation is now set. However... *~*~*~* The Pertronix amplifier unit doesn't mount in "ONE" indexed position in the distributor. The screw hole is a slot, and the amplifier can slide back and forth before being tightened down. If the amplifier is at the counter-clockwise (left) extreme, the spark will fire late. If it's at the clockwise (right) extreme, the spark will fire early. 'Perfection' is 1) the crank reaching the Static Advance timing mark (10° BTDC, or whatever your target is) at the same time that 2) the rotor's leading edge aligns with the #1 terminal, and 3) the amplifier fires a spark. That last one, item 3) above, is a matter of where the amplifier is in it's mounting slot when the screw is tightened down. To far to the right (clockwise), and it might fire the spark before the rotor is aligned with the cap's terminal. Too far to the left (counter-clockwise), and it might fire the spark late, well after the rotor has reached the terminal, and result in retarded ignition timing despite the crank being correctly set to 10° BTDC. With the crank set at your target timing advance, and the distributor rotated to bring the terminal into alignment with the rotor's leading edge (or slightly over-lapping), loosen and re-position the Pertronix amplifier's pick-up to be aligned with the moving reluctor as best you can. Pertronix refers to that adjustment as "Phasing". All the engine adjustments are "ignition timing", and the amplifier adjustment is "Phasing". And they need to agree. *~*~*~* The spark isn't instantaneous, is has a duration. By aligning the plug wire terminal with the leading edge of the wide rotor blade, you're giving the spark the maximum amount of time from when the rotor's leading edge first aligns with the terminal, to when it's trailing edge departs. At 7000 rpm, the time required for the full width of the blade to sweep by the terminal is still very brief. Phase the Pertronix too far to the right (clockwise), and it it might fire the spark before the rotor aligns with the #1 terminal. That's a lost spark, and nothing happens. Phase it too far to the left (counter-clockwise), and it may fire the spark late, after part of the rotor's width has partially passed the terminal. The spark will still reach the terminal, and the plug will fire, but you have given up some of that all ready very brief duration time for the spark. At high rpm, the trailing edge of the rotor may leave the terminal before the spark is done. The spark will reach the sparkplug, and the engine will run, so this is the lesser of two evils. But the goal is to Phase the amplifier as best you can to take full advantage of the spark's full duration. flatlanderep wrote: Is it possible the distributor is not seated all the way in the housing?Possible, and you should make certain it is seated. But the drive dog is engaged or it's not. There's no 'out a little' that will affect timing. Grab the rotor and try to spin it. If the rotor turns freely, then the distributor is partially disengaged to the point that the drive dog is not in the mating slot in the end of the Auxilliary Shaft. If the rotor is 'solid', and doesn't turn at all, then the drive dog is seated in the Aux Shaft's slot. It's either/ or, and not something that 'slightly' affects ignition timing. Regards, Tim Engel Last edited on 11-06-2019 04:53 pm by Esprit2 |
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flatlanderep Member
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After spending a few couple of hours following Tim E. suggestions, I decided to start from the beginning. Took out distributor and sending pics of the Pertronix install and the dis. shaft. First, is the magnetic ring down far enough on the shaft? Is does not go down any further and aligns with the amplifier. Also, I don’t see how the clockwise or ccwise position can be changed because the mounting plate fits exactly where the 2 holes are located and it does not slide. Also noticed that it appears that a washer is missing at the end of the distributor shaft. See attached pics. Attachment: 24B95A23-8DC2-4682-A466-8A40014C3687.jpeg (Downloaded 114 times) |
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flatlanderep Member
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Another pic of distributor Attachment: C5722CD4-DCB3-413F-B75A-8E4E01ECE24F.jpeg (Downloaded 141 times) |
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flatlanderep Member
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Here is another pic of the Pertronix install. I am putting an O-ring washer on the end of distributor shaft. What size is required. I have 115, 116 and 210. Attachment: 685FD780-BF0F-4463-91F8-4CBA8E7BD9A8.jpeg (Downloaded 136 times) Last edited on 11-06-2019 06:25 pm by flatlanderep |
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Tom Bradley Member
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flatlanderep wrote:is the magnetic ring down far enough on the shaft? Is does not go down any further and aligns with the amplifier. It looks good to me. This looks like what I remember from installing my Pertronix. If you are getting sparks at all, then the sensor is detecting the magnetic ring. If in doubt, try rotating the magnetic ring while holding the shaft. You should not be able to turn it without turning the whole shaft. Also, I don’t see how the clockwise or ccwise position can be changed because the mounting plate fits exactly where the 2 holes are located and it does not slide. The direction of rotation will not change, but as I recall from installing mine, the timing was quite a bit off from what it was with the previous ignition. I don't recall how much, but I suppose it could have been as much as 180 degrees. So I had to do a bunch of rotating the distributor and checking with the timing light to get the timing right. Also noticed that it appears that a washer is missing at the end of the distributor shaft. See attached pics. No, there is not supposed to be a washer at that spot. The one you have installed higher up is the one you need. What I always had trouble with when installing the distributor was getting two posts in the distributor shaft lined up with the corresponding slots inside the housing. I am not sure if you realize (forgive me if I am explaining something you already know), but when you rotate the distributor shaft you will find a spot where the two line up and the distributor slides in further and the shaft cannot be rotated. At this point you have to keep pushing the distributor in while tightening the clamp. You also will have to hold the distributor in place whenever you loosen the clamp to adjust the timing, otherwise it will pop back out and not work correctly. I always have to use a fairly long lever to hold it in whenever I do any adjusting. Always a difficult operation and the main reason I switched to electronic ignition: so I would not have to do that very often. |
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flatlanderep Member
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Last evening, I re-installed distributor with no O ring on end of shaft and it went smoothly as I had marked location when I removed it. Engine was still at TDC. I finally understand how to loosen distributor screw and rotate the body to line up at the beginning edge of the fixed rotor. Tried to start but still no luck. Very frustrated at this point. A friend suggested that I run a jumper wire from battery to coil to determine if the coil has adequate voltage under load. |
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Tim Murphy Member
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Apparently, according to some MG forums, the pertronix one can be static timed. Check with the factory to make sure that is accurate. If so, you can set your ignition timing (the time the spark fires) without the engine running. Turn crank to 10 degrees before TDC. Connect a spare spark plug to the number 1 wire and set on engine (as you did before). Turn ignition key to on (run) position (Not the start position). Rotate the distributor body until the spark plug fires. Tighten distributor down at that position. That sets your idle timing to around 10 degrees before TDC. Car should start OK and run OK. Last edited on 11-08-2019 01:48 am by Tim Murphy |
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flatlanderep Member
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Finally got it to start. Determined Pertronix unit was working by attaching voltmeter to negative coil and checked that voltage went fro 0 to 12 volts as I manually rotated the crank. Found this is an old post. Then I did as Tom suggested 10 degrees BTDC and then rotated dizzy body until I got spark, tightened pinch bolt. Car started and it was idling high from where I had io set previously. I reduced idle but cannot get it below 1200 rpms. Is there an anything further that I need to do? I am thankful to get to this point and I have enhanced my knowledge. Thank you! Steve Koska |
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Tom Bradley Member
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Congratulations! This can be a frustrating car to work on but it is very gratifying when you finally get everything right. High idle speed actually sounds good. It means that things are working better than they were before. Also, the more advanced the timing, the more the idle setting has to be reduced to get the same idle speed. My guess is that the choke setting may be interfering with reducing the idle speed to what you want. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Dellortos so cannot help with how to adjust that. |
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Frank Schwartz Member
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Unless I mis-read this posting, and you cannot get lower than 1200 rpm, there is a fine adjustment wheel on the distributor which if working, can be used to raise or lower the rpm a bit, but I usually just rotate the distributor until it reaches about 850 to 900 rpm, then lock it in. One has to be careful, as you know, for when you loosen the pinch clamp, the distributor can pop out and can be a bugger to get back in.. |
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flatlanderep Member
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I was able to adjust the idle speed to 1000 & if it is lower , the engine stops. So I used my timing light and the crank pulley timing marks are before the fixed 30 degree mark and the cam pulleys are about 6 teeth off. Then I assume, my timing is way off. Since I set it at 10 degrees BTDC & it started, has my distributor moved because I don’t understand how the timing is so far off but it is running. Do I start over again, Ccheck TDC, then set again at 10 degrees BTDC? |
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flatlanderep Member
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I was able to adjust the idle speed to 1000 & if it is lower , the engine stops. So I used my timing light and the crank pulley timing marks are before the fixed 30 degree mark and the cam pulleys are about 6 teeth off. Then I assume, my timing is way off. Since I set it at 10 degrees BTDC & it started, has my distributor moved because I don’t understand how the timing is so far off but it is running. Do I start over again, Ccheck TDC, then set again at 10 degrees BTDC? |
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Tom Bradley Member
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My guess is that the static timing of the Pertronix 1 is not very accurate. I would trust what you are seeing with the timing light. In my experience, if the engine is in good shape, it will at least run over a wide range of timing settings. So it does not surprise me that yours is running at 30 deg BTDC. Whatever the cause, it is running, so I would go on from here, not start over. What I would do at this point is make small adjustments to the distributor until you get the timing (according to the timing light method) to the 10 degrees BTDC you were aiming for. I recommend small adjustments because you will probably have to increase the idle speed adjustment on the carbs as you back off on the timing advance to keep the car running. Actually, it might be better to increase the idle speed first so you don't run into the frustration of the engine not running as you adjust the distributor. Last edited on 11-20-2019 05:09 am by Tom Bradley |
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flatlanderep Member
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When I make minor distributor adjustments, do I take the dist. cap off so the dist. does not pop out? What direction clockwise or CCW? |
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Tom Bradley Member
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I always have to keep sideways pressure on the distributor whenever I make timing adjustments to keep it from popping out. In my case I have found a lever arm that works even with the distributor cap on, though I have to take the air cleaner off of the carbs to do it. Before I found that (a long tire iron for bicycle tires) I had to remove the distributor cap. It is always a difficult operation, which is why I went to the trouble of changing to an electronic ignition: so I would not have to do this very often. I tend to have trouble keeping rotational directions straight. As I recall, in order to retard the timing I rotate the top of the distributor towards me when I am standing on the carb side of the engine. I always start out with a small tweek just in case I get the direction wrong. |
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flatlanderep Member
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I started rotating the dist. towards me or rotating towards the oil filter while keeping inward pressure on dist cap. Found this was stalling out although I had increased the idle speed to start this process as you suggested. So I changed direction rotating towards the engine. Seems like I got the best response and I tightened dist. pinch clamp. I checked timing with timing light & it was about 18 degrees with RPM just under 1000. I have attached a photo of where the dist. is located, about 11 o’clock compared to 9:30 with mechanical points. Does this matter? Should I attempt to rotate dist to get closer to 12 degrees? Attachment: 69D5BADD-7AF2-4FD1-83BC-0D6EFD055E31.jpeg (Downloaded 73 times) |
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Tom Bradley Member
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Sorry about getting the direction of rotation wrong. I always seem to get that part backwards. Glad you got it figured out. When finalizing the timing it is important that you do not set it so far advanced that you get detonation (knocking) under any circumstances. This is not good for long-term engine life. My guess is that 18 deg BTDC is probably going to be too much. What I would do at this point is take it out for a spin and see if there is any knocking under any conditions. My worst case scenario is when accelerating uphill in a high gear. I would back off on the timing until it is reliably knock-free and set it there or a couple of degrees more retarded just in case. One of the things which changes the knocking tendency is the richness of the air/fuel mix. So if you are planning on doing any adjustments to the carbs after this you might want to be more conservative in the timing setting if you do not want to have to go back to fiddling with the distributor again. If you go all the way back to 10 BTDC I think you will be completely safe but will not get quite as much performance out of the engine as you would at a more advanced setting. |
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redracer Member
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Once you get the engine running with Pertronix, use the timing light to determine if you need to advance or retard it. You may have noticed(and it has been posted many times on this site) that the 10mm nut that holds the distributor to the back of the oil pump is "slotted" This can be used for the final adjustment without fear of the dizzy popping out of its hole.(set this nut near the middle of the slot before doing tha main/large adjustment) Our engines run best at 30 degrees full advance(about 3000rpm) and NOT the 34-37 degrees called for in most American iron. After this setting is obtained, don't worry about the idle advance as it doesn't matter |
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Rick in Miami Member
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I can’t take credit for devising this simple distributor retainer but found it very easy to make and it works like a charm. Attachment: Distributor Keeper 1.jpg (Downloaded 57 times) |
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Tom Bradley Member
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Very nice, Rick. I will have to make one of these. |
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flatlanderep Member
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Today, increased timing from 10 to 12 degrees with idle at 1000 RPMs and when I increased revs to 3000, put timing light on crank and it was 30 degrees BTDC. Seems to be running well. I think that I am done. Thanks for all the help on this long post. I have finally learned about timing and saved myself a lot of $$ by doing it myself! Steve |
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Tom Bradley Member
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Congratulations! Glad to hear you got it running the way you like. Have fun! |
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